Repairier's duty of care re data.

  • Thread starter Thread starter Anteaus
  • Start date Start date
as we know there are

are two classes of technicians:



1) those who is inexperienced



and



2) those that know what they

are doing



the inexperienced will

always take the easy way

out and charge by the hour

even for chasing goose due

to their incompetence or

bad judgments.



the experienced however,

will charge by the job and

will treat the customers machine

as their own and



perform the same steps to

repair it as they would do

on their own machine.



further the experienced will

always provide some guidance

to help the customers.



what separates the inexperienced

from the experienced. Is understanding

what is quality control, quality

assurance and customer service.



these qualities ensure customer

loyalty, trust and the promotion

of the business to others.



these qualities also separates the

trolls from the rest of us on

the newsgroups.



unfortunately, there are too

many idiots pretending to

be technicians and trolls

pretending to know what

are best business practices.



however, I am pleased to say

that I am in total agreement with

you when you elude that the

machine should be given back

in better shape than how it

was brought in..



the prime objective for all

business's and newsgroup helpers

is to provide quality service,

good customer service and support.



..

--



db·´¯`·...¸>

DatabaseBen, Retired Professional

- Systems Analyst

- Database Developer

- Accountancy

- Veteran of the Armed Forces

- Microsoft Partner

- @hotmail.com

~~~~~~~~~~"share the nirvana" - dbZen



>

>



"Twayne" wrote in message news:usQXQfr0KHA.4412@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl...

> In news:MPG.261ed6f32f2c7ad98a24d@us.news.astraweb.com,

> Leythos typed:

>> In article

>> , "db"

>> says...

>>>

>>> it should be your responsibility

>>> to make a back up of the data

>>> for your protection.

>>

>> You're nuts - the backup is the customers responsibility,

>> even if you do it.

>

> Nah, that's unneccessary expense for a task that's practically automatic and takes little to no expertise. Any charge should be

> minimal, and waivable if the customer has their own backups. It's not right to charge the ignorant for their ignorance.

>

>>

>>> the backup should be no charge

>>> because you will need to revert

>>> the system back to it's original

>>> state if your analysis proves faulty

>>> or the customer is dissatisfied with

>>> your work.

>>

>> A backup of data can take hours and each customer can take

>> different amounts of time and storage space. To eat that

>> cost shows that you have never run a business and don't

>> understand business at all.

>>

>>> the backup will also serve as a

>>> method to restore the customers

>>> personal files if you decide to

>>> wipe the disk and install a new

>>> o.s.

>>

>> I think everyone already knows the above.

>>

>>> if the customer wants the back

>>> up disks you created, then sell

>>> them back to him but make a

>>> copy for your protection.

>>

>> Wrong, if you make a backup you RESTORE the data, time cost

>> to the customer, and you wipe your media or charge the

>> customer for the cost of the media, as any business would

>> properly do.

>>

>> In most cases a tech will bring a portable drive to do

>> backups with, the drive belongs to the tech/company and

>> will not be given to the customer since it's used and is

>> company/tech property.

>>

>> It's completely insane to think that a customer should not

>> have to pay for any part of the cleaning and restore

>> process, and that includes backup and recovery of the

>> customers data.

>

>

>
 
In news:MPG.26204386829d4fd598a25c@us.news.astraweb.com,

Leythos typed:

> In article ,

> nobody@spamcop.net says...

>>

>> In news:MPG.261ed6f32f2c7ad98a24d@us.news.astraweb.com,

>> Leythos typed:

>>> In article

>>> , "db"

>>> says...

>>>>

>>>> it should be your responsibility

>>>> to make a back up of the data

>>>> for your protection.

>>>

>>> You're nuts - the backup is the customers responsibility,

>>> even if you do it.

>>

>> Nah, that's unneccessary expense for a task that's

>> practically automatic and takes little to no expertise.

>> Any charge should be minimal, and waivable if the customer

>> has their own backups. It's not right to charge the

>> ignorant for their ignorance.

>

> You're mistaken - if the customer ALREADY, so as to not

> delay you (since your a contractor), then you don't need to

> make a backup, as long as the customer agrees that anything

> since his/her last backup will not be retained.



So, you don't worry about how big a mess you make of their

system. That's a rotten attitude for anyone repairing a

computer.



>

> No consultant would give their time away free on a normal

> basis when working for customers, in general. If a backup

> takes 1 hour because you have to search for files, iTunes,

> other music, Kodak files, etc... then that's real time you

> should charge for.



Search for files? Do you understand how to back up? Why would

you search for any files? Done properly there isn't even any

program to install. You connect a cable, initiate the backup,

and go do something else while the backup runs.

It sounds to me like you charge twice for the same period

of time: The time the backup is running and the time for

whatever other product you spend the time working on. That's

totally unethical and is un-acceptable for anyone with any

scruples of any kind.

Or do you just sit and twiddle your thumbs during a backup?

If that's the case, you need help with some time-use training.

You do the backup for YOU, so that YOU can give the machine

back with the same data it had to begin with. If it turns out

to be a bad drive, then you get to sell a drive; great. But

you still put their OS back, and their data. And it's only one

drive to backup most of the time unless you don't know how to

disconnect the other drives.

There's something you don't understand or just don't "get"

about this stuff. Whether I need it or not, the first thing

that happens here to any machine that will run is to back up

the boot drive. Otherwise it's a phone call to alert the

customer to his possible data loss and increased price BEFORE

I expend the material/s and time.



>

> Remember, the reason you're there is because THEY CALLED

> YOU FOR YOUR SKILLS TO AID THEM - they should pay for your

> time, all of it.



Consultant?!? Now your'e switching gears. Are you consulting

or repairing computers?

Going to a consultant to get a compute repaired is like

taking your car to a consultant so he can tell you why your

front left tire is flat and how to fix it! A consultant does

not do repairs, he "consults" with someone. A repairman

doesn't consult, he repairs.

I'm beginning to wonder whether you're actually "leythos"

of the BUTT, impersonating him again. Guess I'll have to check

that out because this mail is certainly untypical of Leythos.



HTH,



Twayne`
 
In news:MPG.2620473a341bccee98a25e@us.news.astraweb.com,

Leythos typed:

> In article ,

> nobody@spamcop.net says...

>>> A backup of data can take hours and each customer can take

>>> different amounts of time and storage space. To eat that

>>> cost shows that you have never run a business and don't

>>> understand business at all.

>>

>> BS - Only the physical drive with data needs backing up of

>> the OS.

>> It takes a minute or so to connect a cable, maybe install

>> backup support 10 miutes, then a click and forget it. You

>> don't sit staring at a machine while it backs up; doing so

>> is double-booking because 99% of people will go do

>> something else while the backup runs.

>> Backups aren't time eaters; it's that simple. Being

>> able to do something else while the backup runs is common

>> sense and if you aren't doing so, you shouldn't be in

>> business anyway. And it seldom if ever takes "hours" to do

>> a backup. Backing up should be free or a very minimal

>> price.

>> Definitely less than $10; a lot less.

>>

>

> You must be missing a lot in the world.

>

> In every case I've come across, there was more being used

> than the My Something folders for customers systems.



So? You connect a cable and let it backup! What, 3 minutes

maybe at the outside to start the backup? Of the whole boot

drive? You just disconnect the other drives and forget them

unless they turn out to have parts of programs on them. That's

easy to know ahead of time and usually only pops up if they've

been installing to an external drive.



>

> As for connecting a cable and letting it rip - sure, you

> connect a USB drive, say a spare 100GB USB drive, and copy

> the basic files, then you go hunting for the ones that are

> not in the users profile that they can see, and you copy

> them.



Huh? You back up the whole drive with an app on your end that

uses VSS. It's stupid to look for what has to be backed up.

Get real. So yeah, you click and forget until it's done or

crashes.



>

> While they copy there is little else you can be doing,

> since you can't start the repair until you've done the

> backup.



Oh, yes there is. Work on another customer's machine. If there

are no others, then you get to twiddle your thumbs; damned if

I'd pay you to do that!



>

> So, if the tech is onsite at a customers location, the only

> call at that location, do you really think they are going

> to leave for an hour and come back? That's complete

> nonsense.



That's also NOT the situation you presented. This is your

first mention of such a situation, in fact, an obvious attempt

to troll this off into a different direction. You're grasping

at straws now since nothing you've yet said indicated onsite

work.

Besides, if I'm at a customer's location, he's available to

talk to and to alert to possible problems the vast majority of

the time. But I still say, from what you've already said, that

your service charge would be high enough to cover that

scenario. Oh, and one more thing; just because a backup is in

progress is no reason to not be able to run other programs and

troubleshoot if you really wanted to. Throttle back the backup

a tad and have at your troubleshooting. Any way you look at

it, it's stupid to do nothing during a backup if the need for

one is indicated, and it should be free, actually.



If you happen to be working for one of those roving in-home

fixers, you're not going to do a backup anyway. Those are the

biggest ripoff artists I've ever come across.



>

> The tech is going to stay onsite and wait for the backup,

> it would be a loss to leave the site and have to sit in the

> parking lot listening to the radio....



By your own definition, how would it be a loss? Because you

can't charge for the thumb twiddling time? This might be one

of those times a backup isn't necessary, especially since all

the disks & programs are also going to be available, or should

be. How do you even survive if you come across a

media-machine? Woof!

T here are a LOT of things you could be doing while the

backup runs, being collected on YOUR drive, with YOUR program

unless he's already set up for it. Which is doubtful. It

doesn't take long to backup an OS and any data that lives on

that same physical drive; it's an opportunity to do other

things for the customer, like cleaning, blowing out dust

(safely), going through Even Viewer, relevant to the problem

logs, etc. etc. etc..

If you actually do onsite repairs, well, you're doing them

wrong.



>

> I've seen customers with 200+ GB of pictures and video that

> take hours to complete a backup to a USB external drive -

> try it yourself sometime, and that's if the malware hasn't

> borked the ability to copy the files...



I not only "tried" it, I do it every day for three machines.

Full images once a month, incrementals nightly otherwise. 200

GB isn't going to take that long to back up unless you're

using some incredibly old equipment, and if the customer

doesn't have his own backups.

If it's on the OS physical drive, I'd still back it up. If

it's on another drive, I just disconnect the drives. I've even

been known to pop a customer's drives into my own sandbox to

get a better handle on what it's really doing.

All it takes is a phone call or to ask whoever's looking

over you shoulder whether they already have images backed up,

if you really want to charge for them. It sounds to me like

your customers must get a lot of bad surprises, something no

business should ever allow to happen.

There ARE circumstances where I wouldn't back up the

customer's data but I make no secret of it. For instance,

should they have used EFS and several other things that would

be discovered during the first set of tests.



The more I read from you, the more I begin to think you

actually don't have the foggiest what you're talking about.

And for that same reason I have to wonder if you are Leythos

or BUTTS impersonating him again.
 
Excellent post, db. Don't know who you were responding to, but

at it shows you're a thinking man.



HTH,



Twayne`





n news:untdQI00KHA.3376@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl,

db typed:

> as we know there are

> are two classes of technicians:

>

> 1) those who is inexperienced

>

> and

>

> 2) those that know what they

> are doing

>

> the inexperienced will

> always take the easy way

> out and charge by the hour

> even for chasing goose due

> to their incompetence or

> bad judgments.

>

> the experienced however,

> will charge by the job and

> will treat the customers machine

> as their own and

>

> perform the same steps to

> repair it as they would do

> on their own machine.

>

> further the experienced will

> always provide some guidance

> to help the customers.

>

> what separates the inexperienced

> from the experienced. Is understanding

> what is quality control, quality

> assurance and customer service.

>

> these qualities ensure customer

> loyalty, trust and the promotion

> of the business to others.

>

> these qualities also separates the

> trolls from the rest of us on

> the newsgroups.

>

> unfortunately, there are too

> many idiots pretending to

> be technicians and trolls

> pretending to know what

> are best business practices.

>

> however, I am pleased to say

> that I am in total agreement with

> you when you elude that the

> machine should be given back

> in better shape than how it

> was brought in..

>

> the prime objective for all

> business's and newsgroup helpers

> is to provide quality service,

> good customer service and support.

>

> .

>

>>

>>

>

> "Twayne" wrote in message

> news:usQXQfr0KHA.4412@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl...

>> In news:MPG.261ed6f32f2c7ad98a24d@us.news.astraweb.com,

>> Leythos typed:

>>> In article

>>> , "db"

>>> says...

>>>>

>>>> it should be your responsibility

>>>> to make a back up of the data

>>>> for your protection.

>>>

>>> You're nuts - the backup is the customers responsibility,

>>> even if you do it.

>>

>> Nah, that's unneccessary expense for a task that's

>> practically automatic and takes little to no expertise.

>> Any charge should be minimal, and waivable if the customer

>> has their own backups. It's not right to charge the

>> ignorant for their ignorance.

>>>

>>>> the backup should be no charge

>>>> because you will need to revert

>>>> the system back to it's original

>>>> state if your analysis proves faulty

>>>> or the customer is dissatisfied with

>>>> your work.

>>>

>>> A backup of data can take hours and each customer can take

>>> different amounts of time and storage space. To eat that

>>> cost shows that you have never run a business and don't

>>> understand business at all.

>>>

>>>> the backup will also serve as a

>>>> method to restore the customers

>>>> personal files if you decide to

>>>> wipe the disk and install a new

>>>> o.s.

>>>

>>> I think everyone already knows the above.

>>>

>>>> if the customer wants the back

>>>> up disks you created, then sell

>>>> them back to him but make a

>>>> copy for your protection.

>>>

>>> Wrong, if you make a backup you RESTORE the data, time

>>> cost to the customer, and you wipe your media or charge

>>> the customer for the cost of the media, as any business

>>> would properly do.

>>>

>>> In most cases a tech will bring a portable drive to do

>>> backups with, the drive belongs to the tech/company and

>>> will not be given to the customer since it's used and is

>>> company/tech property.

>>>

>>> It's completely insane to think that a customer should not

>>> have to pay for any part of the cleaning and restore

>>> process, and that includes backup and recovery of the

>>> customers data.
 
Don't put my name into this thread. I have been saying for years that

Leythos is a dumb idiot and a liar. Now that you finally see that for

yourself you can't believe it and try to accuse him of being me

UNBELIEVABLE!







--

The Real Truth http://pcbutts1-therealtruth.blogspot.com/

*WARNING* Do NOT follow any advice given by the people listed below.

They do NOT have the expertise or knowledge to fix your issue. Do not waste

your time.

David H Lipman, Malke, PA Bear, Beauregard T. Shagnasty, Leythos.









"Twayne" wrote in message

news:Oy9Q8i10KHA.348@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl...

> In news:MPG.2620473a341bccee98a25e@us.news.astraweb.com,

> Leythos typed:

>> In article ,

>> nobody@spamcop.net says...

>>>> A backup of data can take hours and each customer can take

>>>> different amounts of time and storage space. To eat that

>>>> cost shows that you have never run a business and don't

>>>> understand business at all.

>>>

>>> BS - Only the physical drive with data needs backing up of

>>> the OS.

>>> It takes a minute or so to connect a cable, maybe install

>>> backup support 10 miutes, then a click and forget it. You

>>> don't sit staring at a machine while it backs up; doing so

>>> is double-booking because 99% of people will go do

>>> something else while the backup runs.

>>> Backups aren't time eaters; it's that simple. Being

>>> able to do something else while the backup runs is common

>>> sense and if you aren't doing so, you shouldn't be in

>>> business anyway. And it seldom if ever takes "hours" to do

>>> a backup. Backing up should be free or a very minimal

>>> price.

>>> Definitely less than $10; a lot less.

>>>

>>

>> You must be missing a lot in the world.

>>

>> In every case I've come across, there was more being used

>> than the My Something folders for customers systems.

>

> So? You connect a cable and let it backup! What, 3 minutes maybe at the

> outside to start the backup? Of the whole boot drive? You just disconnect

> the other drives and forget them unless they turn out to have parts of

> programs on them. That's easy to know ahead of time and usually only pops

> up if they've been installing to an external drive.

>

>>

>> As for connecting a cable and letting it rip - sure, you

>> connect a USB drive, say a spare 100GB USB drive, and copy

>> the basic files, then you go hunting for the ones that are

>> not in the users profile that they can see, and you copy

>> them.

>

> Huh? You back up the whole drive with an app on your end that uses VSS.

> It's stupid to look for what has to be backed up. Get real. So yeah, you

> click and forget until it's done or crashes.

>

>>

>> While they copy there is little else you can be doing,

>> since you can't start the repair until you've done the

>> backup.

>

> Oh, yes there is. Work on another customer's machine. If there are no

> others, then you get to twiddle your thumbs; damned if I'd pay you to do

> that!

>

>>

>> So, if the tech is onsite at a customers location, the only

>> call at that location, do you really think they are going

>> to leave for an hour and come back? That's complete

>> nonsense.

>

> That's also NOT the situation you presented. This is your first mention of

> such a situation, in fact, an obvious attempt to troll this off into a

> different direction. You're grasping at straws now since nothing you've

> yet said indicated onsite work.

> Besides, if I'm at a customer's location, he's available to talk to and

> to alert to possible problems the vast majority of the time. But I still

> say, from what you've already said, that your service charge would be high

> enough to cover that scenario. Oh, and one more thing; just because a

> backup is in progress is no reason to not be able to run other programs

> and troubleshoot if you really wanted to. Throttle back the backup a tad

> and have at your troubleshooting. Any way you look at it, it's stupid to

> do nothing during a backup if the need for one is indicated, and it should

> be free, actually.

>

> If you happen to be working for one of those roving in-home fixers, you're

> not going to do a backup anyway. Those are the biggest ripoff artists I've

> ever come across.

>

>>

>> The tech is going to stay onsite and wait for the backup,

>> it would be a loss to leave the site and have to sit in the

>> parking lot listening to the radio....

>

> By your own definition, how would it be a loss? Because you can't charge

> for the thumb twiddling time? This might be one of those times a backup

> isn't necessary, especially since all the disks & programs are also going

> to be available, or should be. How do you even survive if you come across

> a media-machine? Woof!

> T here are a LOT of things you could be doing while the backup runs,

> being collected on YOUR drive, with YOUR program unless he's already set

> up for it. Which is doubtful. It doesn't take long to backup an OS and any

> data that lives on that same physical drive; it's an opportunity to do

> other things for the customer, like cleaning, blowing out dust (safely),

> going through Even Viewer, relevant to the problem logs, etc. etc. etc..

> If you actually do onsite repairs, well, you're doing them wrong.

>

>>

>> I've seen customers with 200+ GB of pictures and video that

>> take hours to complete a backup to a USB external drive -

>> try it yourself sometime, and that's if the malware hasn't

>> borked the ability to copy the files...

>

> I not only "tried" it, I do it every day for three machines. Full images

> once a month, incrementals nightly otherwise. 200 GB isn't going to take

> that long to back up unless you're using some incredibly old equipment,

> and if the customer doesn't have his own backups.

> If it's on the OS physical drive, I'd still back it up. If it's on

> another drive, I just disconnect the drives. I've even been known to pop a

> customer's drives into my own sandbox to get a better handle on what it's

> really doing.

> All it takes is a phone call or to ask whoever's looking over you

> shoulder whether they already have images backed up, if you really want to

> charge for them. It sounds to me like your customers must get a lot of bad

> surprises, something no business should ever allow to happen.

> There ARE circumstances where I wouldn't back up the customer's data but

> I make no secret of it. For instance, should they have used EFS and

> several other things that would be discovered during the first set of

> tests.

>

> The more I read from you, the more I begin to think you actually don't

> have the foggiest what you're talking about. And for that same reason I

> have to wonder if you are Leythos or BUTTS impersonating him again.

>

>

>
 
There is nothing un typical about it. You left the idiot brainwash you for

years. What did you finally wake up?





--

The Real Truth http://pcbutts1-therealtruth.blogspot.com/

*WARNING* Do NOT follow any advice given by the people listed below.

They do NOT have the expertise or knowledge to fix your issue. Do not waste

your time.

David H Lipman, Malke, PA Bear, Beauregard T. Shagnasty, Leythos.









"Twayne" wrote in message

news:OrlV9S10KHA.3652@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...

> In news:MPG.26204386829d4fd598a25c@us.news.astraweb.com,

> Leythos typed:

>> In article ,

>> nobody@spamcop.net says...

>>>

>>> In news:MPG.261ed6f32f2c7ad98a24d@us.news.astraweb.com,

>>> Leythos typed:

>>>> In article

>>>> , "db"

>>>> says...

>>>>>

>>>>> it should be your responsibility

>>>>> to make a back up of the data

>>>>> for your protection.

>>>>

>>>> You're nuts - the backup is the customers responsibility,

>>>> even if you do it.

>>>

>>> Nah, that's unneccessary expense for a task that's

>>> practically automatic and takes little to no expertise.

>>> Any charge should be minimal, and waivable if the customer

>>> has their own backups. It's not right to charge the

>>> ignorant for their ignorance.

>>

>> You're mistaken - if the customer ALREADY, so as to not

>> delay you (since your a contractor), then you don't need to

>> make a backup, as long as the customer agrees that anything

>> since his/her last backup will not be retained.

>

> So, you don't worry about how big a mess you make of their system. That's

> a rotten attitude for anyone repairing a computer.

>

>>

>> No consultant would give their time away free on a normal

>> basis when working for customers, in general. If a backup

>> takes 1 hour because you have to search for files, iTunes,

>> other music, Kodak files, etc... then that's real time you

>> should charge for.

>

> Search for files? Do you understand how to back up? Why would you search

> for any files? Done properly there isn't even any program to install. You

> connect a cable, initiate the backup, and go do something else while the

> backup runs.

> It sounds to me like you charge twice for the same period of time: The

> time the backup is running and the time for whatever other product you

> spend the time working on. That's totally unethical and is un-acceptable

> for anyone with any scruples of any kind.

> Or do you just sit and twiddle your thumbs during a backup? If that's

> the case, you need help with some time-use training.

> You do the backup for YOU, so that YOU can give the machine back with

> the same data it had to begin with. If it turns out to be a bad drive,

> then you get to sell a drive; great. But you still put their OS back, and

> their data. And it's only one drive to backup most of the time unless you

> don't know how to disconnect the other drives.

> There's something you don't understand or just don't "get" about this

> stuff. Whether I need it or not, the first thing that happens here to any

> machine that will run is to back up the boot drive. Otherwise it's a

> phone call to alert the customer to his possible data loss and increased

> price BEFORE I expend the material/s and time.

>

>>

>> Remember, the reason you're there is because THEY CALLED

>> YOU FOR YOUR SKILLS TO AID THEM - they should pay for your

>> time, all of it.

>

> Consultant?!? Now your'e switching gears. Are you consulting or repairing

> computers?

> Going to a consultant to get a compute repaired is like taking your car

> to a consultant so he can tell you why your front left tire is flat and

> how to fix it! A consultant does not do repairs, he "consults" with

> someone. A repairman doesn't consult, he repairs.

> I'm beginning to wonder whether you're actually "leythos" of the BUTT,

> impersonating him again. Guess I'll have to check that out because this

> mail is certainly untypical of Leythos.

>

> HTH,

>

> Twayne`

>

>
 
In article , nobody@spamcop.net

says...

>

> In news:MPG.26204386829d4fd598a25c@us.news.astraweb.com,

> Leythos typed:

> > In article ,

> > nobody@spamcop.net says...

> >>

> >> In news:MPG.261ed6f32f2c7ad98a24d@us.news.astraweb.com,

> >> Leythos typed:

> >>> In article

> >>> , "db"

> >>> says...

> >>>>

> >>>> it should be your responsibility

> >>>> to make a back up of the data

> >>>> for your protection.

> >>>

> >>> You're nuts - the backup is the customers responsibility,

> >>> even if you do it.

> >>

> >> Nah, that's unneccessary expense for a task that's

> >> practically automatic and takes little to no expertise.

> >> Any charge should be minimal, and waivable if the customer

> >> has their own backups. It's not right to charge the

> >> ignorant for their ignorance.

> >

> > You're mistaken - if the customer ALREADY, so as to not

> > delay you (since your a contractor), then you don't need to

> > make a backup, as long as the customer agrees that anything

> > since his/her last backup will not be retained.

>

> So, you don't worry about how big a mess you make of their

> system. That's a rotten attitude for anyone repairing a

> computer.



You're not stating what I've said, you're twisting it and you know it.



> > No consultant would give their time away free on a normal

> > basis when working for customers, in general. If a backup

> > takes 1 hour because you have to search for files, iTunes,

> > other music, Kodak files, etc... then that's real time you

> > should charge for.

>

> Search for files? Do you understand how to back up? Why would

> you search for any files? Done properly there isn't even any

> program to install. You connect a cable, initiate the backup,

> and go do something else while the backup runs.



And What backup would that be?



How do you go "Somewhere else" in their home and not still be spending

time?



> It sounds to me like you charge twice for the same period

> of time: The time the backup is running and the time for

> whatever other product you spend the time working on. That's

> totally unethical and is un-acceptable for anyone with any

> scruples of any kind.



You're nuts, completely nuts.



If you go to a customer, they ask you to clean and/or rebuild their

machine, you're going to be on the clock from the time you hit their

door until you leave with the computer fixed.



So, if they have no good backups, you have to backup the computer,

that's read time that you bill them for.



If they have a good backup already, you don't need to make one - it's

the customers call.



Not all people are smart enough to backup all of their data and not all

backup programs actually find all data.



One the backup issue is resolved you start the work....



Lets say the machine is hosed and you have to reinstall the OS, you've

brought XP SP3 and Office 2003/2007 SP's with you, but that leaves 80+

more updates that have to be downloaded to complete the job - it would

be stupid to not charge them while the ADDITIONAL sp's/fixes are

downloaded and installed from Microsoft Update.



> Or do you just sit and twiddle your thumbs during a backup?

> If that's the case, you need help with some time-use training.



And what is it that you propose a tech does while the computer is

running the backup for any length of time - considering that the tech is

most likely in a customers home or at a customers office - should the

tech offer to do the dishes or take out the trash?



> You do the backup for YOU, so that YOU can give the machine

> back with the same data it had to begin with. If it turns out

> to be a bad drive, then you get to sell a drive; great. But

> you still put their OS back, and their data. And it's only one

> drive to backup most of the time unless you don't know how to

> disconnect the other drives.



Ah, but you're missing the point - the backup is not for the TECH, it's

for the CUSTOMER to help them not experience data loss from a drive swap

or malware cleaning. It's the customers data, their choice to backup or

not, and they pay for their choice. It's not like people have been

unaware that they need to backup files on a regular basis - it's only

been common for 30+ years.



> There's something you don't understand or just don't "get"

> about this stuff. Whether I need it or not, the first thing

> that happens here to any machine that will run is to back up

> the boot drive. Otherwise it's a phone call to alert the

> customer to his possible data loss and increased price BEFORE

> I expend the material/s and time.



If you're not charging for YOUR TIME to backup the CUSTOMERS DATA FOR

THEM, unless they ask you not to do a backup, then you're screwing

yourself.



> > Remember, the reason you're there is because THEY CALLED

> > YOU FOR YOUR SKILLS TO AID THEM - they should pay for your

> > time, all of it.

>

> Consultant?!? Now your'e switching gears. Are you consulting

> or repairing computers?

> Going to a consultant to get a compute repaired is like

> taking your car to a consultant so he can tell you why your

> front left tire is flat and how to fix it! A consultant does

> not do repairs, he "consults" with someone. A repairman

> doesn't consult, he repairs.



LOL, now you're twisting again. Any consultant level engineer will be

able to do far more than a "Tech", that's why you don't seem to be able

to understand this stuff - you are what I believe is a Geek Squad entry

level tech and you don't appear to own a business or work for yourself,

at least not from your lack of time/cost understanding.



> I'm beginning to wonder whether you're actually "leythos"

> of the BUTT, impersonating him again. Guess I'll have to check

> that out because this mail is certainly untypical of Leythos.



LOL, It's me and you can email me to get proof - but, in my 30 years

I've never not charged for time spent to repair a customers system. If

they want a backup and understand data loss without a backup, well, it's

their choice.







--

You can't trust your best friends, your five senses, only the little

voice inside you that most civilians don't even hear -- Listen to that.

Trust yourself.

spam999free@rrohio.com (remove 999 for proper email address)
 
In article , nobody@spamcop.net

says...

> Oh, yes there is. Work on another customer's machine. If there

> are no others, then you get to twiddle your thumbs; damned if

> I'd pay you to do that!

>



You seem to think that we're talking about customers that brought the

computers to YOU, but you seem to have missed the idea that many tech's

go to customers locations - so, if you're at John Smiths home to repair

his laptop, how do you drive 30 minutes to another customers home/office

to work on their machine during the backup?



You should open your scope a little.



--

You can't trust your best friends, your five senses, only the little

voice inside you that most civilians don't even hear -- Listen to that.

Trust yourself.

spam999free@rrohio.com (remove 999 for proper email address)
 
In news:hp8224$1fi$1@leythos.motzarella.org,

The Real Truth MVP typed:

> Don't put my name into this thread. I have been saying for

> years that Leythos is a dumb idiot and a liar. Now that you

> finally see that for yourself you can't believe it and try

> to accuse him of being me UNBELIEVABLE!



Quite believable, actually, if you consider that YOU emulate

others.



>

>

>

>

> "Twayne" wrote in message

> news:Oy9Q8i10KHA.348@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl...

>> In news:MPG.2620473a341bccee98a25e@us.news.astraweb.com,

>> Leythos typed:

>>> In article ,

>>> nobody@spamcop.net says...

>>>>> A backup of data can take hours and each customer can

>>>>> take different amounts of time and storage space. To

>>>>> eat that cost shows that you have never run a business

>>>>> and don't understand business at all.

>>>>

>>>> BS - Only the physical drive with data needs backing up

>>>> of the OS.

>>>> It takes a minute or so to connect a cable, maybe install

>>>> backup support 10 miutes, then a click and forget it. You

>>>> don't sit staring at a machine while it backs up; doing

>>>> so is double-booking because 99% of people will go do

>>>> something else while the backup runs.

>>>> Backups aren't time eaters; it's that simple. Being

>>>> able to do something else while the backup runs is common

>>>> sense and if you aren't doing so, you shouldn't be in

>>>> business anyway. And it seldom if ever takes "hours" to

>>>> do a backup. Backing up should be free or a very

>>>> minimal price.

>>>> Definitely less than $10; a lot less.

>>>>

>>>

>>> You must be missing a lot in the world.

>>>

>>> In every case I've come across, there was more being used

>>> than the My Something folders for customers systems.

>>

>> So? You connect a cable and let it backup! What, 3 minutes

>> maybe at the outside to start the backup? Of the whole

>> boot drive? You just disconnect the other drives and

>> forget them unless they turn out to have parts of programs

>> on them. That's easy to know ahead of time and usually

>> only pops up if they've been installing to an external

>> drive.

>>>

>>> As for connecting a cable and letting it rip - sure, you

>>> connect a USB drive, say a spare 100GB USB drive, and copy

>>> the basic files, then you go hunting for the ones that are

>>> not in the users profile that they can see, and you copy

>>> them.

>>

>> Huh? You back up the whole drive with an app on your end

>> that uses VSS. It's stupid to look for what has to be

>> backed up. Get real. So yeah, you click and forget until

>> it's done or crashes.

>>>

>>> While they copy there is little else you can be doing,

>>> since you can't start the repair until you've done the

>>> backup.

>>

>> Oh, yes there is. Work on another customer's machine. If

>> there are no others, then you get to twiddle your thumbs;

>> damned if I'd pay you to do that!

>>

>>>

>>> So, if the tech is onsite at a customers location, the

>>> only call at that location, do you really think they are

>>> going to leave for an hour and come back? That's complete

>>> nonsense.

>>

>> That's also NOT the situation you presented. This is your

>> first mention of such a situation, in fact, an obvious

>> attempt to troll this off into a different direction.

>> You're grasping at straws now since nothing you've yet

>> said indicated onsite work. Besides, if I'm at a

>> customer's location, he's available to talk to and to

>> alert to possible problems the vast majority of the time.

>> But I still say, from what you've already said, that your

>> service charge would be high enough to cover that

>> scenario. Oh, and one more thing; just because a backup is

>> in progress is no reason to not be able to run other

>> programs and troubleshoot if you really wanted to.

>> Throttle back the backup a tad and have at your

>> troubleshooting. Any way you look at it, it's stupid to do

>> nothing during a backup if the need for one is indicated,

>> and it should be free, actually. If you happen to be

>> working for one of those roving

>> in-home fixers, you're not going to do a backup anyway.

>> Those are the biggest ripoff artists I've ever come across.

>>

>>>

>>> The tech is going to stay onsite and wait for the backup,

>>> it would be a loss to leave the site and have to sit in

>>> the parking lot listening to the radio....

>>

>> By your own definition, how would it be a loss? Because

>> you can't charge for the thumb twiddling time? This might

>> be one of those times a backup isn't necessary, especially

>> since all the disks & programs are also going to be

>> available, or should be. How do you even survive if you

>> come across a media-machine? Woof! T here are a LOT of

>> things you could be doing while the backup runs, being

>> collected on YOUR drive, with YOUR program unless he's

>> already set up for it. Which is doubtful. It doesn't take

>> long to backup an OS and any data that lives on that same

>> physical drive; it's an opportunity to do other things for

>> the customer, like cleaning, blowing out dust (safely),

>> going through Even Viewer, relevant to the problem logs,

>> etc. etc. etc.. If you actually do onsite repairs, well,

>> you're doing them wrong.

>>>

>>> I've seen customers with 200+ GB of pictures and video

>>> that take hours to complete a backup to a USB external

>>> drive - try it yourself sometime, and that's if the

>>> malware hasn't borked the ability to copy the files...

>>

>> I not only "tried" it, I do it every day for three

>> machines. Full images once a month, incrementals nightly

>> otherwise. 200 GB isn't going to take that long to back up

>> unless you're using some incredibly old equipment, and if

>> the customer doesn't have his own backups. If it's on

>> the OS physical drive, I'd still back it up. If it's on

>> another drive, I just disconnect the drives. I've even

>> been known to pop a customer's drives into my own sandbox

>> to get a better handle on what it's really doing. All it

>> takes is a phone call or to ask whoever's looking over you

>> shoulder whether they already have images backed up, if

>> you really want to charge for them. It sounds to me like

>> your customers must get a lot of bad surprises,

>> something no business should ever allow to happen. There

>> ARE circumstances where I wouldn't back up the customer's

>> data but I make no secret of it. For instance, should

>> they have used EFS and several other things that would be

>> discovered during the first set of tests. The more I read

>> from you, the more I begin to think you

>> actually don't have the foggiest what you're talking

>> about. And for that same reason I have to wonder if you

>> are Leythos or BUTTS impersonating him again.
 
You'll have to kind of ignore Twayne. He is very narcistic.

"Leythos" wrote in message

news:MPG.2621a1a7653f31a698a267@us.news.astraweb.com...

> In article , nobody@spamcop.net

> says...

>>

>> In news:MPG.26204386829d4fd598a25c@us.news.astraweb.com,

>> Leythos typed:

>> > In article ,

>> > nobody@spamcop.net says...

>> >>

>> >> In news:MPG.261ed6f32f2c7ad98a24d@us.news.astraweb.com,

>> >> Leythos typed:

>> >>> In article

>> >>> , "db"

>> >>> says...

>> >>>>

>> >>>> it should be your responsibility

>> >>>> to make a back up of the data

>> >>>> for your protection.

>> >>>

>> >>> You're nuts - the backup is the customers responsibility,

>> >>> even if you do it.

>> >>

>> >> Nah, that's unneccessary expense for a task that's

>> >> practically automatic and takes little to no expertise.

>> >> Any charge should be minimal, and waivable if the customer

>> >> has their own backups. It's not right to charge the

>> >> ignorant for their ignorance.

>> >

>> > You're mistaken - if the customer ALREADY, so as to not

>> > delay you (since your a contractor), then you don't need to

>> > make a backup, as long as the customer agrees that anything

>> > since his/her last backup will not be retained.

>>

>> So, you don't worry about how big a mess you make of their

>> system. That's a rotten attitude for anyone repairing a

>> computer.

>

> You're not stating what I've said, you're twisting it and you know it.

>

>> > No consultant would give their time away free on a normal

>> > basis when working for customers, in general. If a backup

>> > takes 1 hour because you have to search for files, iTunes,

>> > other music, Kodak files, etc... then that's real time you

>> > should charge for.

>>

>> Search for files? Do you understand how to back up? Why would

>> you search for any files? Done properly there isn't even any

>> program to install. You connect a cable, initiate the backup,

>> and go do something else while the backup runs.

>

> And What backup would that be?

>

> How do you go "Somewhere else" in their home and not still be spending

> time?

>

>> It sounds to me like you charge twice for the same period

>> of time: The time the backup is running and the time for

>> whatever other product you spend the time working on. That's

>> totally unethical and is un-acceptable for anyone with any

>> scruples of any kind.

>

> You're nuts, completely nuts.

>

> If you go to a customer, they ask you to clean and/or rebuild their

> machine, you're going to be on the clock from the time you hit their

> door until you leave with the computer fixed.

>

> So, if they have no good backups, you have to backup the computer,

> that's read time that you bill them for.

>

> If they have a good backup already, you don't need to make one - it's

> the customers call.

>

> Not all people are smart enough to backup all of their data and not all

> backup programs actually find all data.

>

> One the backup issue is resolved you start the work....

>

> Lets say the machine is hosed and you have to reinstall the OS, you've

> brought XP SP3 and Office 2003/2007 SP's with you, but that leaves 80+

> more updates that have to be downloaded to complete the job - it would

> be stupid to not charge them while the ADDITIONAL sp's/fixes are

> downloaded and installed from Microsoft Update.

>

>> Or do you just sit and twiddle your thumbs during a backup?

>> If that's the case, you need help with some time-use training.

>

> And what is it that you propose a tech does while the computer is

> running the backup for any length of time - considering that the tech is

> most likely in a customers home or at a customers office - should the

> tech offer to do the dishes or take out the trash?

>

>> You do the backup for YOU, so that YOU can give the machine

>> back with the same data it had to begin with. If it turns out

>> to be a bad drive, then you get to sell a drive; great. But

>> you still put their OS back, and their data. And it's only one

>> drive to backup most of the time unless you don't know how to

>> disconnect the other drives.

>

> Ah, but you're missing the point - the backup is not for the TECH, it's

> for the CUSTOMER to help them not experience data loss from a drive swap

> or malware cleaning. It's the customers data, their choice to backup or

> not, and they pay for their choice. It's not like people have been

> unaware that they need to backup files on a regular basis - it's only

> been common for 30+ years.

>

>> There's something you don't understand or just don't "get"

>> about this stuff. Whether I need it or not, the first thing

>> that happens here to any machine that will run is to back up

>> the boot drive. Otherwise it's a phone call to alert the

>> customer to his possible data loss and increased price BEFORE

>> I expend the material/s and time.

>

> If you're not charging for YOUR TIME to backup the CUSTOMERS DATA FOR

> THEM, unless they ask you not to do a backup, then you're screwing

> yourself.

>

>> > Remember, the reason you're there is because THEY CALLED

>> > YOU FOR YOUR SKILLS TO AID THEM - they should pay for your

>> > time, all of it.

>>

>> Consultant?!? Now your'e switching gears. Are you consulting

>> or repairing computers?

>> Going to a consultant to get a compute repaired is like

>> taking your car to a consultant so he can tell you why your

>> front left tire is flat and how to fix it! A consultant does

>> not do repairs, he "consults" with someone. A repairman

>> doesn't consult, he repairs.

>

> LOL, now you're twisting again. Any consultant level engineer will be

> able to do far more than a "Tech", that's why you don't seem to be able

> to understand this stuff - you are what I believe is a Geek Squad entry

> level tech and you don't appear to own a business or work for yourself,

> at least not from your lack of time/cost understanding.

>

>> I'm beginning to wonder whether you're actually "leythos"

>> of the BUTT, impersonating him again. Guess I'll have to check

>> that out because this mail is certainly untypical of Leythos.

>

> LOL, It's me and you can email me to get proof - but, in my 30 years

> I've never not charged for time spent to repair a customers system. If

> they want a backup and understand data loss without a backup, well, it's

> their choice.

>

>

>

> --

> You can't trust your best friends, your five senses, only the little

> voice inside you that most civilians don't even hear -- Listen to that.

> Trust yourself.

> spam999free@rrohio.com (remove 999 for proper email address)
 
especially if the customer is an american!



"LD55ZRA" wrote:



>

>

> sgopus wrote:

> >

>

> > the old adage the customer is always correct

>

> This adage does not apply in France where Customer is always wrong

> and should be taught a lesson!

>

> hth

> .

>
 
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